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| DESIGN: |
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| HERVÉ BERTRAND |
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| THE FOUNTAINHEAD |
FreshBritain | Glenn Kitson | Neil Bedford | Mark Smith |
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"I DON'T BUILD IN ORDER TO HAVE CLIENTS.
I HAVE CLIENTS IN ORDER TO BUILD!"
Howard Roark, The Fountainhead [1949]
While the UK was avidly watching the Royal Wedding, Glenn
Kitson and Neil Bedford escaped across the English Channel to
France – Lyon to be precise. Their task was to get to the bottom
of what made a modern day design legend tick.
Hervé Bertrand is the Design Director of the Renault Trucks
Design Studio, Halle du Design [HDD ].
When one thinks of design it’s easy to conjure up images of
nice clothing, print, architecture and furniture but Hervé is
concerned with trucks. Big trucks.
A larger than life character whose jovial nature and sharp wit
betrays a deep intellect and a natural philosophical nature,
Hervé immediately makes you feel at ease. The obvious
admiration his work colleagues have for him is evident, as is
their desire to work.
Having quickly cemented his status as the funniest Frenchman
Glenn and Neil had ever met, he stopped talking about Pippa
Middleton’s behind and began telling Glenn about himself,
while Neil got busy with the camera.
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PAUL DAINTREE FOLLOWED HERVÉ TO LYON, JOINING HIM AT RENAULT TRUCKS. HAVING CUT
HIS TEETH ALONGSIDE HIM AT AWARD WINNING DESIGNERS SEYMOUR-POWELL, PAUL KNOWS
HERVÉ BETTER THAN MOST.
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Normal companies cannot create creativity, they do not know how to handle it, how to measure it or
control it. 9am - 5pm hours and a cubicle do not work. Seymour-Powell was the best place to nurture
creativity, measure, control and handle it. It is when I look back that I can see the key factors, the
freedom of working hours, the desks all close together to encourage exchange/critiques.
The drinks fridge was ‘help yourself’ to soft drinks during the day and alcohol after 6 - encouraging
people to stay, to relax and to see what other people were working on. In one sense it was like still
being at university - you are almost protected from the realities of the outside world so that you stay
focused on the best design, the best idea. It is very much the same here. There is the freedom, the
protection from the outside world and increasingly more and more projects of a diverse nature to keep
the creativity bubbling.
Here - as at Seymour-Powell - good designs are pushed forward. Yes we work for the client but we
are the experts. This is the part of design that needs the big balls. Good design cannot be done by
committee, by clinic tests or other or it becomes diluted. But also good design is not styling. Good
design is from the core of the product - it is sticking to the target to achieve the exact goal, not to
diversify and please more people.”It’s like that” - we are the experts and if you do not like what we have
done then we will not do the project and you can go and find amateurs to create something ordinary.
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At HDD, we have beer,
balls and no BS.
This is rock and roll.
If it is not a good day
and Hervé doesn't
like the work, boy oh
boy do you know it.
It is guitar smashing
in design terms,
but what he says is
usually correct.
At school you always
remember what the
'hard' teacher taught
you - Hervé is that
teacher.
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INTERVIEW [1/4]
GLENN KITSON: Who is Hervé Bertrand?
HERVÉ BERTRAND: Who am I, who the hell am I? I’m a product
designer at heart.
When I was eleven or twelve years old I saw a movie called
The Fountainhead, an absolutely incredible film. It stars Gary
Cooper who plays a modernist architect who is trying to make
sure that creativity and ‘new things’ are at the forefront of
everything. The film really struck me as a young boy and back
then I thought that architecture was the way forward for me.
As I got older though, and learned that red tape and planning
permission meant it took years to create buildings, so I moved
on to smaller things...like product design.
I went to college and studied with some really cool designers.
And like any 16 years old who really wants to do something, you
could kick me out of the door and I would climb back in through
the window! They would have me photocopying and making
the coffee but I just really wanted to be in that tribe, it is an
essential part of my life. It was everything I wanted. And the
reason that I wanted it was not because of the money - there
isn’t really money in product design - or even to make my mark
or be on the front covers of magazines or being ‘the designer’,
like Philippe Starck. It was about being part of the process,
this Darwinist sense, being part of some intelligent process of
change for the better. This is what excited me.
GK: Everybody seems tasteful these days?
HB: It’s not even about being tasteful, it is ego I think? I think
some people are massive ego-mongers, it is understandable.
When these designers do things a certain way and it becomes
their ‘mark’, they get more commissions and when you get
more commissions you then get more freedom. I am not
against this but the problem is that you have to reduce yourself
to a single handed process, you do furniture or gloves or you
name it. Whereas, heavy industry gives you this incredible
chance and provides you with massive tools but even with this
you are then diluted into the process, so you must remain even
stronger to interpret the gospel. Because the gospel doesn’t
necessarily have to be heard but at least partially understood.
This is quite a challenge but it is very interesting.
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GK: You speak of Darwin and natural selection of course, is that
part of your gospel?
HB: The natural selection is very clear. If the object of the
product designer is the support of brands then natural
selection has to be right there. At a record company, if you
don’t sell anything then you’re gone. This actually creates
a very healthy environment. It is consistency of a message,
consistency of a trust. Like a relationship. If everything in life is
built on trust and not fear then the results should be ‘love’. It
is about love because love gives comfort. And love comes from
passing the boundaries of trusting somebody and being on
safe ground. It is something to be cherished. And the only way
to have this in an organisation - whatever the size may be - is
to have a consistent message and a consistent promise. And
the only way to have this is to have the right people involved. To
have the correct craftsmanship.
GK: Please talk me through the process, from having an idea to
the full realisation of it.
HB: Ok, well here at the Renault Trucks Design studio we will
go from not knowing much to having a lot and when you have
a lot, not knowing much either! [Smiles]. It is really all about
choices, for example the process usually takes four years.
Within this we will have the natural process of marketing the
brand, the consumer tests, the engineering process, sharing
elements with different suppliers, and finally all this will mean
absolutely squat because the core element is the original idea
of what you want to achieve. It can be something very simple,
like strength or stability or some sort of ‘motto’. This is what
you follow through with.
I’m not going to get into all those designer cliches, ‘yes, we
make mood boards of architecture and fashion'. It’s not about
putting things on boards and saying I like a bit of this and I like
a bit of that, it’s more of an intuitive and interactive process, a
merger of the collaboration of lots of different people working
together.
Again, a lot of the key people are the people on the factory floor.
The designers are massively inspired by the clay modellers
who have the incredible skill of sculpture and an amazing
sense of form. Any computer software tools we have here at
the studio are in no way better than what the clay modellers
can offer in for instance, drop shadow and depth over volume.
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INTERVIEW [2/4]
GK: What are you doing here at the Renault Trucks design
studio?
HB: The design studio was created here at Lyon as we used to
be part of Renault cars and everything was done at the Techno
Centre in Paris. Our company was then sold to the Volvo Group
who poached me from London and we set up the studio here.
The idea was to make sure that the object of the brand is that
the core customers are attached still, so the studio is built
close to the brand and their customer.
So here we have the truck drivers, the fleet managers [the
people who actually buy the trucks], the owners of haulage
companies and other multi-logistic platforms. It’s making sure
we have all the different layers of customers covered. So the
truck drivers want something ‘cheap’, the Fleet managers
require brand value that’s solid because the finance process
is very important. And finally we need to offer all these people
a really good tool to work with. It is understanding all this
process.
This process is the same for all vehicle manufacturers but we
have to factor in the brand so we mix in a bit of France. The
reason we are in Lyon is that this company has been making
cars and trucks since 1905, so it has very old values and we
need to make sure we anchor ourselves in that knowledge and
that it doesn’t get lost. Everybody needs to relate to something.
It is the notion of ownership and belonging, this is what
separates us from the savage.
GK: Savages, Darwin… this is Anthropology, no?
HB: It is! It’s funny, when we think of the creationists in the US
and the anti-Darwinists who speak of Intelligent Design they
are using the right words for the opposite of what it actually is.
The essence of product design in my view is exactly that. It is
understanding the problem, making sure you actually have the
right level of understanding of the issue and the right tools and
the right people to then implement it. And then always try to
have a side angle to make a bit of difference. What is needed is
a lot of empathy, a lot of culture and a lot of trust for the people
who bring you information and usually go with the opposite
direction of your own.
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GK: And how do you work with your team here?
HB: Well this is now where I tell you the opposite because I
need to be in reaction to this. When you have a process like this
you create almost the most beautiful democracy but you need
to counteract this with an absolute dictatorship. You need to do
this because it is about choice. It is either going to be ‘this’ or
it’s going to be ‘that’. It is right or wrong. There is always a time
in the design process where you make a definitive decision.
There needs to be a level of instinct involved. When you have
30 or 40 people working on a new product these people will
require is direction and decision.
This is responsibility. Creative people need to feel free and
trusted and they need people to stick by them and say “That’s
the right decision and I’m going to stick by it”. On a big
industrial programme it is essential. The dictatorship isn’t
about being the big all knowing figure, it is just about taking the
responsibility of making a ‘fuck up’ decision and knowing the
responsibility is on you. And people love you for that.
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INTERVIEW [3/4]
GK: What is your personal approach to industrial design and
product design?
HB: For instance this room at our studio is filled with my
personal approach, from the Herman Miller chairs or the
Eames stuff because it is well thought through with the
perfect merger of design with a twist of fun, those things are
not serious. They are mid-century design yet still modern.
It is almost perfection. I really relate this sort of stuff, Leica
cameras, Gilles Lamps, Renzo Piano. All this tells me
exactly the same story. It sounds massively pretentious but
pretentiousness is a good thing if you can actually achieve it!
[Laughs]
And of course this goes for the trucks we are developing.
Some of this you can talk about but we are not allowed to use
photography! [Laughs]
GK: I think I saw something that resembled Optimus Prime?
HB: You’ve got a point!
All of these objects are about function but to me, love is a
function, emotion is a function, empathy is a function. We care
too much about our right and left brains, hardcore function.
This was one of the major mistakes of the Bauhaus and a lot
of modernist architecture, function over form and everything.
The 1950s guys, the Danish, the Finns and people like Eames,
they focused too much on this. Love is a function but this
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somehow became overlooked. I’m not sure it got lost but it was
swallowed up by those consumed with their own terrain and
their own environment. But there is also the ‘fun environment’,
a lot of modern art is concerned with this. Unfortunately,
modern art used be about disputing society and poking fun at it
but now we get people who are more concerned with gimmicks.
They feel that is enough and they put it before the intelligence.
GK: Do you find it decadent?
HB: I don’t know about that, I’m pretty decadent myself.
Decadence may be an easy way of looking at it but design in
general needs to regroup and remember that creativity is very
simple. We don’t need to rely on gimmicks, we just need the
intelligence and the empathy to understand a problem. This is
a beautiful thing. It’s about culture, if you have lots of culture
that ‘problem’ will become a wonderful solution.
Those guys in the 1950s came from an age when society was
totally shit, people say it was the golden age but those guys
had a really hard time and they were trying to create solutions.
They got through and succeeded because they had tremendous
culture. But now, we tweet a lot, we use Facebook, but quite
frankly, we don’t speak a lot. We don’t read a lot, we don’t use
our brains and for me this is a real issue. I am not keen on fake
networking. For me to be your friend, I need to meet you. Social
networking creates a multi layer pretence.. it’s bollocks! Where
is the craft? It is a PR person’s world and when the hell did PR
do anything beneficial for the world?
Pardon my French!
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INTERVIEW [PART 4/4]
GK: Where does knowledge factor into your process?
HB: I will be bold with this question. It is about culture and I
do see myself as a very cultivated man even if it is potentially
the wrong culture. And what is culture? Well for me, it involves
Malt Whiskey, half of the back page of GQ magazine, a few
books and an incredible amount of crappy films [laughs]. Of
course, it is about architecture, the old cathedrals and their
volume and proportion. But it is also about learning from each
other. Learning from the silence of someone who is trying to
explain something, which takes us back to empathy. I have
baggage, I had the chance to live abroad and move around a lot
and I urge everybody who reads MANUFACTURE magazine (as
soon as they have finished reading my article) to drop it and go
travelling!
I process knowledge in a loose way. For us here it tends to be a
lot of sketch work. Designers still physically sketch here. One
of the problems of the computer age is that method is being
lost.
When I was a young designer many years ago you would
walk through the studio in the evenings and see the drawing
tables. There would be lots and lots of drawings spread out
everywhere so you would pass through and look at the designs.
Today, you will only see a screen saver on a monitor and you
will see nothing. It is not the more loose way it used to be in
the old days. Design teams need to see each other’s work
and more importantly the layers of process, not one image
but several different variations of the same drawings. This is
really changing the world right now because it changes the
perception of the overall design process much more than new
software developments. It is the like having everybody’s notes
spread over a desk and when you have the knowledge and
understanding you will be able to synthesise this information
into something new.
So here at the studio I ask the guys to print as much stuff off as
they can so we can pin them to the board and everyone can see
each other’s work. It is really important. This way you have the
tangible physical work in front of you then the design process is
already a tangible object.
GK: We've touched on technology.
HB: Of course, technology has changed everything! Computer
software has helped us to explore deeper into the 3D process
that we were unable to before. Here we can do special things
such as chassis configuration where we can spin it around and
look at the overall object in 3D. This allows us to develop a
‘form language’ very quickly. We can form everything with 3D
visualisation either as renderings or as physical objects.
GK: This leads us onto craft?
HB: Well in my trade, craft is simply about drawing. It is the
capacity to actually physically draw and to understand the
3D object and render it very quickly. This is essential. It is
important for those I work with to know that I am capable of
communicating ideas and thoughts in this medium. Those
around you can relate to you because they know you can do
what they do. This is getting lost in our society when we have
people who feel they can manage creatives when they are
not creative themselves. It is a total mistake. It is bollocks!
[Laughs]
It is about achieving quality with the right message and a sense
of simplicity is not easy. I believe everybody should have access
to simplicity, I believe everybody should have access to luxury.
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It’s about space, it’s about having two fantastic pairs of shoes,
one bag, five shirts, three pairs of trousers, four jackets, it’s
enough for a man. Maybe, one watch?
I love Apple but I am sick of their constant pushiness, the new
iPhone, the new iPad, fuck you! I would like to take things back
to people’s original roots, where it is not even about ‘needs’.
Having intelligence is not about ‘needs’, it is about will.
The work that I am trying to do here and I am attempting to
instil in my designers is about culture and to pass that through
the product. I have worked in many different heavy industries,
I have designed trains, agricultural equipment, lots of very big
machines that still exist today. It is very comforting to know
that you can design a product that in fifty years is still in use
doing very ‘workhorse’ tasks in a very humble way. It is almost
quaker style. I’m a designer but almost a quaker in my heart,
even if I drink too much wine…! [Laughs]
Again, it is very pretentious but what we are trying to achieve
is to create design classics and I don’t care if we don’t achieve
it. Just trying to aim for it is enough. This is already an
achievement for me.
GK: Progress rather than perfection?
HB: Exactly, no one can decide about perfection. For one it
is boring and doesn’t exist. You only need to look at nature to
realise that it changes all the time. There is the great quote
by Lampedusa from his book ‘The Leopard’. It was made into
a film starring Burt Lancaster who said the line- “Everything
must change to stay the same”.
For me, the director of that movie Luchino Visconti, or Moby
Dick or even Optimus Prime is exactly the same level of
importance. Culture is our life and this includes popular
culture. It’s about inspiring people to create things for
themselves.
People are constantly talking about greenhouse gasses, I am
way more worried about the dead gas in peoples heads. The
real issue is that people don’t look at things anymore, they
don’t read anything and they don’t have any kind of sense of
judgement. Designers have a responsibility to inject some sort
of culture into society and to have far reaching references. To
educate. And to be honest. We need trust.
I have a very simple theory, since the dawn of time human
nature has been built on fear, we were a species that was not
well equipped, we were not finished. It’s probably one of the
reasons why we seem to hate nature, but we didn’t have the
right hair, the right teeth, the correct eyes or nose, our ears
where a bit too short so the only tool we had was to build a
collective. On our own we were quite useless but five or six of
us could kill a strong animal. We made tools together, the tools
created craftsmanship. And we are the same exact society
today, with Aston Martins and Yacht clubs and...Monocle. While
we still have this fear about being at the bottom, our only
option is to trust. We need to trust the stranger and ourselves.
We gain way more out of people and even ourselves when we
trust. If someone trusts me I will give them the best I can. Trust
is the most beautiful gift that you can give and receive.
Finally, one thing that makes me incredibly happy is that I had
a dream when I was ten years old and I made it. I became what
I wanted to be.
It’s pretty cool.
Ok, I could be a bit slimmer……
[Laughs]
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